Re: [tlug] Wine and installing of Internet Explorer

[jeraldweinstein@example.com]

From: Josh Glover <tlug@example.com>(Jun 6, 2004 2:23 PM)

Quoth jeraldweinstein@example.com (Sun 2004-06-06 12:50:28PM -0700):

> Josh Glover <tlug@example.com> wrote:
> 
> > +----------------------------------+
> > |                                  |
> > |           Open Source            |
> > |                                  |
> > |        +---------------+         |
> > |        |               |         |
> > |        | Free Software |         |
> > |        |               |         |
> > |        +---------------+         |
> > |                                  |
> > +----------------------------------+
> 
> I appreciate your drawing a diagram, they're much more fun to
> read than text.

>>>Like I said in footnote [2]: "Bugger me if the sweet, siren call of
>>>ASCII art isn't nigh irresistable!". (Which, by the way, should *not*
>>>be taken as an invitation--I have already gotten several off-list
>>>replies ;)

> >So, if you desire software that is "free as in beer", please refrain
> >from considering yourself an Open Source advocate. Say it simply:
> >"I prefer not to pay money for software".
> 
> That's silly.  I'm as much as an advocate for Linux as the next person
> who enjoys this newsgroup.

>>>That may be. However, your statement:

Quoth jeraldweinstein@example.com (Sun, 6 Jun 2004 10:16:47 -0700):

> Suddenly, the open source (junkie) saw that something costs~!@#?
> Argh!!!
>>>which is what triggered my rant, certainly does not paint you in that
>>>light. Here you are furthering the misconception that Open Source ==
>>>Free (as in beer).

> >I am not in any way making a value judgement here
> 
> Sorry, but yes you are.
> Pet peeves we all exercise from time to time.

>>>Re-read my post. If you still think I am insulting you in any way, you
>>>have missed my point *completely*.

I didn't feel insulted per se, just taken aback.

>>>Google defines the phrase "value judgement"[1] as:

>>>"an assessment that reveals more about the values of the person making
 >>>the assessment than about the reality of what is assessed"

>>>My values, as I expressed (rather civilly, I though) in my post, are

Yes, I think they were too.

>>>that Open Source is:

>>>- something that makes me a more efficient coder
>>>- a way I see for me to do good, given my particular education and
>>>  skillset (were I a brain surgeon, I would do some pro bono work)

>>>And my judgement was simply:

>>>In equating Open Source with "free as in beer", you are doing the Open
>>>Source a disservice (albeit a slight one).

>>>I provided what I consider a logical explanation of how I arrived at my
>>>conclusion.

> >not wanting to pay
> >for software is a completely valid point of view. 
> 
> If I need software, believe me I'll go through hell or highwater to
> hunt it down. And I will pay for it.
>>>Again, not my point. I myself certainly place a much higher priority on
>>>paying for food, shelter, etc than I do software. If I were hungry and
>>>living from paycheque to paycheque, cost would certainly replace
>>>efficiency at the top of my criteria for choosing software.

>>>I do not consider Open Source a moral issue. What I do consider a moral
>>>issue is Software Engineering. In today's highly automated world, bugs
i>>>n code *can* extract a high price, [2] even in human life! [3] We
>>>professional coders *and* our management *must* accept more
>>>responsibility for software quality, akin to physical engineers. [4]

> >It just happens that
> >so many people equate Open Source with "free as in beer" that it has
> >become a significant problem, and a barrier to adoption in enterprise /
> >corporate environments.
> 
> It has been at once saddening and good that Open Source has become more
> of an enterprise, I think.  Part of the fun of Open Source for me has been that
> it used to be totally free of corporate environments where the profit motive
> deadened the creativity of software developers such as yourself.

>>>Agreed. However, the positive side of this is that some companies [5]
>>>really seem to be getting it, and paying coders to hack on Open Source
(>>>many in a relatively relaxed environment compared to the convention
>>>"wage slave" coder). Some of them are even giving back to the
community! [6]

> >However, from the point of view of an Open Source developer[9], I can
> >say that the nicest contribution a user can make is an email saying
> >something along the lines of, "Thanks for writing foo! I find it very
> >useful for fooing my collection of bars!" He may or may not then go
> >on to request a feature, report a bug, or attach a patch, but it is
> >just the simple act of saying "thank you" that makes my day better.
> 
> Thank you , Josh.  I wish I could change professions and be an Open
> Source Developer like you.

>>>I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that no sarcasm
>>>was meant:

>>>You are welcome. :)

I appreciate the moderate and reasonable attitude.  

> But I can't.  I get my fix of it by trying to actively stay involved
> in threads  that  I need to gather information on here in the confines
> of tlug!

>>>If you want to give back to the Open Source community, here are some
i>>>deas:

>>>- Monetary donations, as I expressed in my previous post.
>>>- Participating on this and other Open Source-related mailing lists.

Done that
  >>>Remember to post your solutions at the end of a thread so that they
  >>>show up in the archives! (Also, as Godwin noted, do fix your
  >>>threading, that will make the archives *a lot* easier to glean
  >>>information from.)
Needs work
>>>- When you attempt something new on your Unix system, keep a Captain's
  >>>Log [7] and then post it somewhere. 

I keep my own logs, so this needs work too.

>>>I will be happy to post Captain's
  >>>Logs on my site [7] as long as you follow my conventions and use a
  >>>Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. [8]
>>>- Submit good bug reports [9] 
Done that
>>>and / or feature requests for the Open
 >>> Source tools that you use the most frequently. 15 minutes of your
  >>>time can save untold hours of collective frustration for the
  >>>countless other users of the software.
>>>- Document something. Anything! Submit it to the distribution [10] or

Can't wait to do this.

  >>>author of the tool, or post it somewhere. [11]

 and this....

> Jerald Weinstein M.S.

>>>What is the Master of Science degree (hope I am not making a boneheaded
>>>assumption here) in? I ask to segue into my last idea:

Computer Information Systems

>>>- Think of a software tool that would make work in your field of
 >>> expertise easier. Suggest it to your local LUG or Open Source
 >>> developer friend. Even if the people you suggest it to are too busy
  >>>or just not interested, the idea is out there, and I cannot think of
  >>>how many times I have said something like, "This guy Jerald Weinstein
  >>>from the TLUG list had a pretty cool idea the other day..." to a
  >>>fellow coder. Sometimes, said coder responds, "Holy shit! [12] That
 >>> *is* a good idea. Hell, [13] it is a *great* idea! I bet I could
 >>> hack something up..." and makes a break for his keyboard, mumbling
  >>>to herself [14] the whole way. :)


Jerald Weinstein M.S.