Re: [tlug] (OT) The enigma of Japan (was: UNIX jobs on TLUG)

[JC Helary <brandelune@example.com>]

On jeudi 04 juin 09, at 16:31, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

> JC Helary writes:
> > On jeudi 04 juin 09, at 10:39, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> >
> > > Busting the UAW, however, can do nothing but
> > > good for the U.S. economy.
> >
> > Busting a union good for the economy ? That's news to me...
>
> Yes.  And if it's news to you, you haven't been looking at youth
> unemployment rates in Spain and France recently.  Unions are not about
> the workers who get hurt most by economic downturns, unions are about
> protecting their members.  If that hoses the rest of the people in the
> country, well, "my job is safe, you take care of yourself, Jack!"

Ah! So it's unions that keep unskilled workers to find good jobs ?  
_Thats_ news.

The issue is not unions, as far as unemployment in France (I don't  
know for Spain) is concerned. The problem is education/(lack of)  
vocational training policies.

Yes, unions are about protecting members and the more members the more  
protected people from silly "free market, free to loose your pension  
to management goons" policies. And of course, there are unions that  
are pro management _or_ have to accept pro management policies in  
exchange for a few benefits (that generally affect all workers, like  
in the general strike of '95).

And as far as I've _experienced_ France in my first decades of life,  
what hoses the "rest of the people" is those silly Indians (who don't  
have unions) who happen to accept plants that big business find too  
expensive in France. Ooops, too expensive _after_ management has been  
paid huge bonuses for delocalizing the plants...

> Some unions are necessary.  Managements are not nice people, they're
> profit maximizers (or a reasonable facsimile as far as the workers are
> concerned), and they do have and exploit monopsony power vs. their
> workforces.

Management is not necessary. Workers can manage their work themselves.  
_Profit_ from other people's labor is what messes everything.

> > Insanity to pay workers decent wages when there is not social safety
> > network around ?
>
> Excuse me, but I wonder how many people on this list make the
> equivalent of USD 80,000/year at the age of 37, with expectations that
> that will rise to USD 140,000/year by retirement, and that they'll
> retire on over USD 100,000/year with 10% deductibles on everything
> health-related from contact lenses to open heart surgery?

And how relevant this list membership is ? Are list members working in  
the car/oil industry that is at the core of 20th century economics ? I  
don't think so.

And if union workers can get those benefits and management can get  
huge bonuses because the american market just loves Hummers and other  
monstrosities then good for them. But the problem is not with the  
union, it is with the market.

UAW could have been smart and tried to make GM change of orientation,  
but it is the same for management. The ones who are hosed now are not  
management (they can get their bonuses other places, because _they_  
have no problem being "mobile") but workers, unionized or not, in this  
messed up economy, because it is not "mobility" that's going to help  
them much.

> Without attending college, and with "tenure" (ie, you have to murder
> your boss to get fired once you've been on the job for 5 years)?

Well, public service has similar treatment for its workers, any issue  
with that ? And isn't car based consumption some kind of public  
service in the US ?

> And yes, it's insane, when Toyota is paying 60% of what GM et al do.

And Tata ? How much is paying Tata its workers ? How insane is that ?

What about a few GM plants delocalized to India to show those silly  
american workers.

> No.  I'm comparing the lower-than-Japanese levels of payment to the
> unimaginable-by-Japanese-standards high quality of care that the UAW
> medical plan provides to its members.

And that's good because if they did not have that they would not be  
able to get reasonable health care by any "normally" developed  
country's standards, including Cuba for that matter.


Jean-Christophe Helary