Re: [tlug] OT: interesting NY times article:High-Tech Japanese, Running Out of Engineers

[Jim Grisanzio <Jim.Grisanzio@example.com>]

Shin MICHIMUKO wrote:
> Hm, many of Japanese should improve the attitude for people from other 
> countries.
>
> From: Jim Grisanzio <Jim.Grisanzio@example.com>
> Sent: 2008年05月20日 09:26:04
>
> > Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> > >  The Japanese neither
> > > want foreigners to stay a minute longer than they're needed for the
> > > job at hand, nor do they expect them to, whereas (corporate) America
> > > has been far more welcoming (to the H1B elite, anyway), and succeeded
> > > in corrupting most of them into staying.  
>
> I don't think it is applied to every Japanese people. I know many 
> people from outside of Japan like you guys and I have learnt lots of 
> things from those people.

Sure. Totally agree. I'm generalizing, of course, but I can substantiate 
some of what was in that NY Times article. Now, if that experience 
changes over time as I become used to how things work here, than my 
views will change accordingly.

> > When I came here I was told (rather sarcastically) that "most 
> > foreigners just leave after a couple of years" and considering how I 
> > have been treated so far I can see why. :)
>
> The impression should be different, if your first place was in the 
> different groups or organizations. But yes, unfortunately, some (or 
> many) of the companies settles in Japan send many people from outside 
> of Japan and pull them out before learning about Japan in detail. I am 
> feeling that Japanese society is pretty complicated even for Japanese, 
> and cannot believe that people from outside Japan can learn the 
> details in short term.

That's for sure! :) But that's one of the reasons I'm here. To learn to 
live a totally different way.

> > It's interesting, though, I don't find these conversations taking 
> > place among my western colleagues in China. Not even close, actually. 
> > For all its faults (and there are many), China seems to be changing 
> > regarding this one issue while Japan remains utterly clueless about 
> > it. Generalizations, I realize.
>
> Do you mean that China is welcoming people from outside of the country 
> than Japan? Maybe true and maybe not. China is emerging market, and 
> they are welcoming people/companies from outside China, of course. 
> However, I know some examples that they changed their mind for some 
> cases. If some competitive company grown in China wants to compete 
> with foreign companies, sometimes the regulation or written contracts 
> were changed by government operation suddenly. So, I have to say it 
> depends on the situation/location even in China by my small experiences.

There are certainly some mind-numbing complexities that westerners in 
China have to deal with, no question about it. But overall I think the 
attitude is much more open to outsiders than it is here. I also 
understand that that is a relatively new phenomenon. Personally, I 
experience this directly with Chinese students (which I've said on this 
list before), but I'm not as familiar with other areas of the market (or 
society) there. My comments about China (and Japan, for that matter) are 
still made from a relative newcomer, so the inaccuracies are probably 
still very high.

> > Having said that, though, the longer I stay the more Japanese 
> > developers I find who reject this exclusionary attitude. I find those 
> > guys remarkable. They they have a lot to teach the west (and me 
> > especially). Who knows. I haven't been here long enough to really 
> > know what I'm talking about. :)
>
> I hope that everybody can understand that Japan is a small country but 
> has long history. The initial reaction of Japanese people when they 
> meet foreign person is checking the person if s/he is becoming our 
> friend or not. I was treated exactly the same in US, when I was sent 
> there (New York) 

Although it's quite diverse, I think NY is probably the toughest place 
in the US. I don't doubt your experience at all.

> to check if one of the development goes correctly, so I guessed that 
> the situation won't be different in any countries. However, once you 
> have found a friend in Japan, perhaps s/he will tell you the way of 
> thinking of Japanese people.
>
> Anyway, I hope you can live longer in Japan peacefully.

Oh, I do think I'll live longer. :) After I figure things out a bit ...

Jim

--
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