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Re: [tlug] Peeling onions.
- Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 12:06:31 +0900
- From: Uva Coder <email@example.com>
- Subject: Re: [tlug] Peeling onions.
- References: <firstname.lastname@example.org> <email@example.com> <firstname.lastname@example.org> <email@example.com>
On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:28:03 -0500, Josh Glover <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote: > > While I would agree with you whole-heartedly on LILO, I actually think > GRUB is quite nice. Elegant design within the limitations imposed by > each architecture, very extensible. What makes you see a train wreck, > specifically? GRUB didn't work for Plan 9 until last week. The Plan 9 folks added GRUB support to the kernel. This is a little bit of the tail wagging the dog, but some folks want to use GRUB; what can I say. ;-) For those that might be interested in Plan 9 kernel history, there is a new site that displays Plan 9 develop over its lifetime. See: http://swtch.com/cgi-bin/plan9history.cgi?v=html;w=main > Isn't this the Unix paradigm, though? I thought that Unix provided > these different IPC methods so that the messaging protocols could be > deferred to the application level. While I see the power of a system > protocol like P9 (please excuse my blatant assumptions here about what > P9 does--I am just inferring from context as I go here, being ignorant > of Plan 9's design and implementation), I also understand why you need > generic IPC as well. (Again, I know nothing of Plan 9, but knowing the > way the BL chaps think--or at least, I *think* that I know how they > think, having devoured all of the books that they have written--I > imagine that it does both). No, Unix edition 8 and later paradigms were not widely published nor accepted. The current Linux paradigm is a combined Unix 7 edition and BSD paradigms; actually heavy on the BSD. Unix 8th, 9th and 10th edition had a lot of interesting programs and a new ideas concerning what should be a working environment. Plan 9 borrows heavily the ideas behind the later editions. So to say that Plan 9 does look or behave like Unix is not quite correct. But know you can see why the claim "Plan 9 is how the original developers of UNIX dreamed UNIX should be" comes about; or even perhaps Rob Pike's claim that "Unix is dead and beginning to smell". There are many things that didn't make into Plan 9 from later Unix too. Plan 9 is a bit minimalistic. Plan 9 doesn't come with a Fair Share Scheduler. Currently, Plan 9 is a distributed working environment, not a Distributed Operating System. Once a Fair Share Scheduler is in place, perhaps we could call it the later. > I would love to find out more. Is there a document on the order of > 10-25 pages that hits the highlights of Plan 9's design? If so, please > point me to it. There are a lot of papers. Perhaps these pages will help: http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/ http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/9.html Again, it would be nice to see Linux adopt many of the ideas. It would seem as a bit of a Unix homecoming. Unix with out X can still be a great working environment; especially if you can export the GUI (i.e. rio) to any system across the internet. > Agreed. And, if I am not totally off-base, that is one of the biggest > ideas behind Plan 9, right? Well, combined with use of namespaces then yes. But even if you didn't have namespaces, having a single utility to handle files is a great idea. It would alleviate many problems and reduce application sizes. Applications wouldn't have to create specialized utilities to handle the files and files types themselves but would have a centralized way to handle them; thus imho reducing problems. > Au contraire, mon frere (rhyme intended, give me a cookie)! I am > finding this discussion one of the most interesting that we have had > in these parts in many moons. Hell, I think SJT and wileyc have posted > more in this thread (and the related ones) than in the past year > combined! :) Thanks, I'm glad that it interests you. Sorry that I'm not more prolific today, I suffering from a hangover. I'm a bit reasoning impaired today. ;-) -uva
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