Mailing List Archive
tlug.jp Mailing List tlug archive tlug Mailing List Archive
[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]
Re: [tlug] Peeling onions.
- Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 01:48:55 +0900
- From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" <email@example.com>
- Subject: Re: [tlug] Peeling onions.
- References: <firstname.lastname@example.org><email@example.com><firstname.lastname@example.org>
- Organization: The XEmacs Project
- User-agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) XEmacs/21.5 (chestnut, linux)
>>>>> "Uva" == Uva Coder <email@example.com> writes: On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 16:16:05 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote: >> So I don't really think that which C compiler is used matters. Uva> Well, I've been studying the 7th to 10th edition Unix, Uva> Linux, Plan 9, Inferno, and V Kernel. Perhaps I'm seeing Uva> patterns where there are none; that is very possible. I don't doubt that the patterns are there. This is important for understanding why the people do what they do. But there's a clear modularization between the toolchain and the kernel and the standard library, etc. There's no reason why the GNU toolchain can't be used to bootstrap a new OS. Uva> It's amazing that the benefits of each system haven't made Uva> its way into a newer operating system. Well, that's a people pattern thing. Remember, the Bell Labs guys are researchers. Small, simple, understand what you're doing so that when you try something new you can understand that too. They have *sucked* at getting their work to market. Remember, Unix is older than CP/M! (OK, OK, getting Unix to run on a Z80 would probably ybe too painful to even think about in 1980.) The people I hang out with eventually go back to a different tradition, the Lisp macghines. The Linux kernel, as you know, was a platform for a graduate student's research and work-avoidance mode, that happened to be production quality from the start. So people who needed a production kernel started using it. I'm not sure why the BSDs didn't get off the ground until after Linux did; I'm sure I booted 386BSD in '93 or earlier, but I _had_ to have X for Japanese (there was no kon then). Why Linux got X first I can only speculate, but it had it by '94, while the BSDs didn't work as well. >> On the other hand, while you clearly can write operating >> systems in C++, Modula-3, and Lisp, where are you going to get >> the reasonable-quality implementations except from GNU? Uva> From Ken (Thompson) C, it's open source. Plan 9 has a Lisp compiler? Uva> Yeah, but I see GRUB and LILO as being train wrecks. I Uva> only see them as getting worse. LILO was always Linux-specific. It works for me on those rare occasions I need to boot, and that's all I care about LILO. GRUB, maybe there's an issue, but I'm not sure what it would be. Getting the bits from the metal into silicon and starting the kernel is always going to be a dirty task. It's what happens after the kernel loads and starts initializing. Uva> I don't see GNU as a coherent foundation where all Uva> applications can share resources through a system protocol Uva> (i.e., P9 protocol). Ah, now that's a point. _GNU_ is no such thing. _GNU_ is about supporting _individual_ hackers, and freeing them from dependency on others' resources. Remember, the GNU system was an OS without a kernel (in many ways, it still is). Stallman is a lunatic; the precise name for the disease is "anarcho-socialism." He believes that if you set people free to cooperate, it will just happen. I agree at some level, but it won't work the wya he thinks it should. Uva> Why not a single protocol that extends across all Uva> boundaries to access data the same way, securely and Uva> safely across networks? Well, let me quote Rusty Russell: "Your network is not *secure*. The problem of allowing rapid, convenient communication while restricting its use to good, not evil intents is congruent to other intractable problems such as allowing free speech while disallowing calls of 'Fire!' in a crowded theater." Or consider the Xrender extension (at least as implemented in X11R6.8 it's really slow, ADSL @ ~45Mbps down is not fast enough by far). Or the Coda caching distributed file system, which is designed to allow Unix semantics as much as possible, but this seems to requiring blocking in open(2) until the entire file is in the cache. Technically, "one protocol communicates all" is a _very_ hard problem. Note that for most users, pay-per-view seems to be acceptable. Sure, they're willing to pay money to shady engineers to circumvent the BS encryptions, but making phone calls to the gi-in to get the laws fixed, no. Socially, it's not obvious that Plan 9-style sharing is _universally_ desirable. There will be a big role for an OS that supports Internet Explorer-style browsing for but not a truly networked data environment a long time to come, maybe forever. -- Institute of Policy and Planning Sciences http://turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp University of Tsukuba Tennodai 1-1-1 Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN Ask not how you can "do" free software business; ask what your business can "do for" free software.
Home | Main Index | Thread Index
- Prev by Date: Re: [tlug] Peeling onions.
- Next by Date: Re: [tlug] "done one job and do it well" mailer
- Previous by thread: Re: [tlug] Peeling onions.
- Next by thread: Re: [tlug] Peeling onions.
Home Page Mailing List Linux and Japan TLUG Members Links