Re: tlug: A message to the "Old Guard" - was "HTML again"

[Dave Gutteridge <dave@example.com>]

Chris is sticking to his guns and maintaining a distance from the TLUG
list, but someone had forwarded my previous posting to him, and he wrote
directly to me with some good points. I've got a response here, which I've
sent to him and I'm also posting here.

Chris,
	I hope you don't mind me coming back at you with this. I realise it kind
of defeats the purpose of you unsubscribing to the TLUG list if people
start coming at you directly. But since I was going to mention your name
and include your words, it seemed best that i let you know what was being
said about you.
	Your points are good, and you can assume that the points I don't respond
to are ones that i am essentially in agreement with. But the points that I
contend with you are these:

>... and you have to admit that most people don't read the docs.  They'd
>rather have the answer handed to them on a platter, zero effort required.

Well, yes, that is one way of putting it. But this to me points out not a
failing of the people who seek the answers, but the people who write the
documentation in question. Information should always be available without
anyone having to make an effort to give it, at least in a theoretical,
Utopian sense. If the man pages were written properly and presented in a
useable fashion, then they would be the easier option compared with finding
someone who knows the software and interrogating him for answers. I want
the answers given to me, on a silver platter. I don't want to have to make
a skill out of finding what i need to know, i simply want to know it so
that i can get my job or task at hand done, and put all my mental resources
into that.

>Well, yeah, if it doesn't already exist.  When an application does not
>exist, there are a few avenues that one can take:
>* Write it yourself
>* Write it with someone else
>* Pay someone to write it for you
>* Lobby a company to port the app
>* Make a big noise and hope that someone else will make the app for you
>Option number five seems to be the most common path taken by the new breed
>of Linux users.  I find it abhorrent.  I also find that the TLUG list is
>becoming dominated by such users.

I don't know whether or not TLUG is being dominated by such users or not.
But i do think that your take on the "Make a big noise" approach is too
negative. Of course, in the terms you describe it, it does sound bad. But
feedback is a huge part of developing something. The way you go about
generating that big noise is an issue (see my next point), but regardless
of how it happens, that information flows from people who use software to
those that develop it is a good thing, as all information flow is. If an
opinion gets enough mention, and it seems like everyone is in agreement
that something should be done about it, in this case some software that
needs to be written, then odds are that the idea will eventually reach
someone who has the method and means to take care of it, and will do so,
and will win much praise. 

>Sure.  My standpoint is simple: if one can't do it, one shouldn't bitch
>because it hasn't been done.

I think the key word here is bitch, and with this point i'll bet we can
come to a concensus on this whole thing. Nobody likes negativity, and i can
totally understand the frustration involved in having someone come to you
with ideas that they are unwilling to put effort of their own into, and
dumping it into your lap as if you were both necessarily responsible for
the problems existence, and required to fix it. I can't really think of a
really pithy way to express my point, so consider these examples of someone
who finds that Linux lacks a really good particular app:
The wrong way:
"Why doesn't Linux have this app? Windows and Mac have it! I can't believe
that no one has thought of making this thing, because it's obvious to me
that it should be shipped with every copy.... blah blah blah"
The right way:
"I've looked around on the Net and I can't find this app i'm looking for. I
would have thought that this idea would be more common, but i guess i was
wrong. If anyone knows where i might find something like it, let me know.
And if it definitely doesn't exist, let me know who i might put the idea
to. I'm sure that out there somewhere is a programmer who would be willing
to do this, and maybe even make a profit for himself."
Of course, these two examples are a little cartoonish in their
presentation, but i think they get across my idea that really it's about
how a person presents thier complaint or observation than it is about the
content itself. It may be a fact that Linux is lacking a good HTML editor,
but that fact can be made to look like an accusation, or it can be made to
look like a contribution.

>> I'm not demanding you make it, but don't complain to me about what I
>> can't do. Why don't you impress me with what you CAN do?
>*laugh* We apparently already have.  You're using Linux, aren't you?

You got me there.

>Most
>of us (yeah, first person plural -- I've done some work) don't feel that
>we need to impress users.  We do this for fun.

It seemed to me that the culture of programmers who are into Linux are
essentially a meritocracy. Things are made not for profit (as they are in
some unmentionable software developing companies) but because they are
cool, work better, and fun to make. I guess the question is where do you
want to earn credit in the currency of merit? For the last few years, new
software developments were judged by other programmers (who, i if i may be
so bold to suggest, are usually more concerned with the elegance of input
than output). But now it might be coming to that point where there's a call
to impress the end user, who doesn't know good code from bad code, but does
know that it sucks when a program gives unexpected results. Depending on
your point of view, it's either the end or the beginning of a "golden age"
or "the heyday" for Linux.
Probably if you are a programmer, it's the end.
Perhaps what needs to be done is to segregate things a bit, and the people
who develop Linux and it's applications might want to create a smaller
group within TLUG with it's own mailing list to discuss the totally
technical. Perhaps getting on the technical mailing list would be a matter
of proving credentials in terms of ability so that you would be ensured of
not having to handle newbie questions. Whatever makes the techies happy. I
just hope that the regular mailing list wouldn't be abandoned by those
Linux Gurus who don't mind swinging a "where's my root directory?" question
now and again, so that those of use who keep bumbling around the interface
can eventually get up to a workable speed.

	Dave

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