tlug: Linux Users Old and New (was: High-end vs Low-end Linux)

[tjhaslam <tjhaslam@example.com>]

JB wrote ( his remarks not in his original order):

JB>my experience in TLUG (and I
JB>think TLUG is a good microcosm of the Linux community, since we bring
JB>together Linux users literally from all over the world, and at many
JB>different experience levels) has been that all you need to contribute is
JB>using or wanting to use Linux.  Look how often it is commented on the TLUG
JB>list that the support is the best?  No matter how much of a beginner you
JB>are, somebody is always willing to help.  

As far as the above paragraph goes, agreed.  I`m not dropping TLUG.  And as
far as the crowd goes, just--as I said earlier--darn good people.  I`m not
just happy--I`m very happy--to socialize with them.  And I don`t intend to
stop.

JB>If the attitude in the Linux community were anything like "only UNIX
JB>programmers need apply," I likely wouldn't be a Linux user today.

With all due considerable respect, you`re distorting my point.  I`ll ask
you to read it again--and judge it on it`s empirical basis.  The core Linux
community derived/ (still derives) from people with knowledge of GNU
and/or Un*x.  It`s not a borg mentality--far from it.  But it is people who
have in the aggregate certain shared knowledge, and yes--assumptions and
even values.  

JB>Fortunately, the attitude of the Linux community is that anyone who wants
JB>an alternative is welcome, and they'll help you get started.  Furthermore,
JB>answers to questions are never farther away than a post to the TLUG list.

Yes.  Overall, invariably true and considerably commendable.  The good
number of people who have time for `newbie` posts, even old pros such as
Karl Wagner, are unfailingly courteous, informative, and helpful.

tjh>> them.  As for attitude problems, any who even considers Linux
obviously has
tjh>> an attitude problem.

JB>Huh???

This  was meant more in the spirit of your remark about people looking for
alternatives.  Most of the Linux users that I have met thus far, in person
or in virtu, do seem to have a healthy contrarian streak.  Yourself not
necessarily excepted.  Since my comment went off poorly: my foul.  As for
the other side of your objection, Yes: I would rather see Linux, finally,
not as unconventional computing but a solid and established alternative for
many users--though a wider class than the current set.

JB>large.   However, I have not even once in my year's journey with Linux
JB>encountered a "What skills are you bringing to the table?"  attitude.
JB>Sure, if you looked hard enough you'd probably find somebody like that,
JB>but I haven't stumbled across one.

(But keep in mine you are a guy with mainframe experience and an IT
professional; as well as a self-made_gaijin_man, and someone very hard not
to both like and respect.)

Perhaps because our backgrounds and current situations (that is, mine and
De Hoog`s and perhaps some others) contrast with the professional Sys
Admin/IT  and Professorial crowds, we tend to respond to rather differently
to certain items/remarks/vibes.  Let me give you an example of the
latter--but not one of the immediate above ( `what are you bringing to the
table`):  I met Marcus Metzler at the last TLUG meeting.  As I recall, if I
have him right, he`s a big friendly bear of a guy.  I have to respect
anyone with a Ph.D. in Physics, quite frankly.  When I said he was much
more intelligent than me, I meant that.  And from having read Marcus`s
posts over the past few months, I know that he is an extremely helpful and
decent guy--besides being a veritable fount of Linux wisdom.   And I think
that he has been a far more valuable member to TLUG that I ever will be.  I
understand he`s leaving Japan--but I sure as hell hope he stays on the
list.   But for all that, I went off on his reply to Hoog.  To me, it did
seem clueless in the way that college professors too often are.  JB, I`ve
worked inside academia and out of it: I`m not making purely gratuituous
remarks concerning the Professorial class.   [BTW, the other commenting
Prof struck me as arrogant rather clueless, but curiously--and
rarely--ill-informed nonetheless].   

Now,  as for some other people (who shall remain nameless), their comments
on the broader issues are occasionally--if not often--quite blatantly
moralistic.  I wonder: is Linux a hobby-horse, an OS, or a religion?  

Well, it`s all three of course--and I`ve been doing some hobby-horse riding
and evangalizing myself.  But I won`t retract the remark you seem most to
object to.   Think there is something of an old guard: and think they have
more than their right to their private--and even civilly expressed
public--opinions about the new class of users.

In my original note (to pull yet another Turnbull here: the recursively,
self-referential post [which he does much better and usefully than I])--as
I was saying, I had said:  

tjh>>They look at me--or for that matter, you--and ask:__ what does this
person bring?__

tjh>>It`s a fair question.  Although I think it`s a question that may have
more than one valid answer.

I still think it is a fair question.  Curiously enough,  I believe that De
Hoog does as well.  But I also think there`s more than one valid answer.  

The recent developments in Linux--the big money following in, the suits who
want to make Redhat the default distribution, MS`s not very loving
attention--these will profoundly impact and change the Linux community.  In
regard to all that and more, people like myself and others--I`ll perhaps
unfairly and certainly without his consent include De Hoog--might have
something positive to offer even by the current lights of Linux community.
Maybe we don`t.  But I`m sticking with Linux and not dropping the list
(although it`s on a different account now, as Majordomo sir knows); and
regarding the earlier promise I broke,  I will be doing my best not to post
to the list on `philosophical matters,` matters which to someone with my
background seem anything but.  

I send this out of respect to yourself and others.  I`m not willing to
retract what I said because I still--however mistakenly--believe it.
Rather be considered a fool than a hypocrite: the the surest proof of a
fool, I guess.  But I will apologize for any offense given, and have just
done so.

Best with the usual and the unusual,

TJH



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