Re: tlug: Re: Japanese input

[Taro Yamamoto <tyamamot@example.com>]

Karl-Max Wagner wrote:
> > Japanese). Also, IPA is like a machine language with many instructions.
> > Every sound can be expressed in IPA, but poeple will prefer a simpler
> > notation that suffices for describing Japanese sounds only, as
> No problem: just use the subset you need. Problem solved.

	I understood.

> > programmers like to use high-level programming languages that are
> Hmmm....you probably never programmed on a TMS 99000 or a NS 32000.

	No, I haven't. I just thought that machine language programmer would
prefer aseembler with macro substitution. Also, I guess even programmers
do not need to write programs in machine language just to do simpler
jobs that can be done with existing prefablicated commands on the OS.
	It's okay if IPA allows subsetting as you mentioned. But romaji can be
expressed in 7-bit ASCII, if typographically sophisticated glyphs are
not needed.
	I found an ASCII representation for IPA, though. See:
		http://www.dcs.shef.ac.uk/research/ilash/info/ipa_ascii.html

> >       Anyway, there are various options (using kanji+kana, romaji, IPA,
> > English, new artificial notations,etc). We do not need to eliminate any
> > of these. We do not need to decide which is the best, because it depends
> This is a problem in Japan of the past. Keep everything. Never
> throw anything away. This actually has caused today's hodgepodge
> of writing systems in Japan.

	The hodgepodge nature is a source of creating new possibilities of
written language, isn't it? I think we do not have to be so restrictive
and introduce foreign or new words or sounds just to the spoken
representation of our language (as English has done for centuries). In
fact, convinced by your argument, I am thinking of using IPA when
necessary. :-)

> When I started it, I set out that in the Heian a clever guy
> developed the kana to eventually replace kanji. The system was
> field tested by court ladies like Murasaki Shikibu who wrote that
> wonderful women literature in the Heian Age - AND THEY USED KANA
> ONLY !!!!! It worked deswpite the homophone problems that existed

	I don't think so. Even kana writers had to use kanji for the words that
can not be expressed in kana (which was not standardized well, it rather
tended to be improvised).
	Story wrting more or less needed kanji. Songs/poems needed less kanji,
because poets attached importance on the beauty of classical Japanese
sounds, rather than on logical clarity or precision of meanings. They
succeded in expressing varous subtle feelings by combining genuine
Japanese words, without using abstract words that can be expressed with
Chinese characters. Kana served the purpose well. For other purposes,
there were many cases where kanji characters were essential.

> You laugh ? Think twice ! What I did in the above was to use the
> state of the art in Japan about 500 years ago ( which was at
> least on a par with Europe ) as a starting point, assumed that
> the Gutenberg type printing was invented and used by then in
> Japan ( had Japan had a kana only system by then this
> doubtlessly would have happened - the technical abilities were
> in place - I even suspect it would have happened MUCH earlier
> than in Europe ). and then used what had happened in Europe
> after that.

	As you have repeated, science and technology are important for our
nation's development. If it is so, it is also important to have a
writing system that can correctly handle abstract and precise concepts
and logics, and that can easily be extended and effeiciently productive
(generative). In the situation where new concepts were imported mainly
from China and Korea, using kanji was very natural, and it contributed
very much to the foundation of our nation. Also, what we could get from
the Chinese civilization was not the same as what we got from the West.
Chinese and some Asian-originated cultural elements can not be
substituted by Western cultures and concepts. Either can not be better
than the other. They are different, though they are mutually
interrelated.
	The hodgepodge nature of our culture (that can be seen in any culture
more or less) looks very natural.

> If you analyze European history you see a marked difference
> between BEFORE and AFTER Gutenberg. After Gutenberg things got
> ahead vastly faster.

	In one sense, Europe could not make calligraphy as artistic as Chinese
and Japanese could. They just saw their writing system just as a tool
only from utilitarian view points. Metal type accelerated it. The art of
typography, howerver valuable and artistic it was in the 16th century
Europe, could not change the general way of view about writing. Kanji
had a completely different possibility that was inherent in the
ideogram.

> Conclusion 1: having a simple writing system is a huge
> advantage. Proven by history in the extreme. Having a complex
> writing system has dire consequences. Also proven by history in
> the extreme.

	Practically it is difficult for Japanese, as proven by examples that
have been introduced in the discussion so far. Language and writing are
inseparable in many senses.
	Also, anything has both sides. The "huge advantage" may not always
deserve to be pursued sacrificing many other things (though I know we
have sacrificed many things already).

> Conclusion 2: with the world becoming a global village indeed a
> unified writing system will sooner or later become a definite
> necessity. Thus IPA is probably the way to go. It would in fact

	I agree with the idea of having a new notation to describe Japanese. I
just do not agree with the idea of abolishing kanji. So, I mentioned a
possibility of using romaji.

> only ! How easy is it back here: "I spell: Whisky - alpha - golf
> - november - echo - romeo. Got it ? OK." How's that for a change ?
> I like it better :-).

	Trying to express a kanji letter form by its meaning is not very
efficient and precise. We should try to express its graphic/geometric
features. Some methods have been invented by lexicographers (look at any
kanji dictioary). As kanji characters have complicated forms, I
understand that it's not simpler than in the case of roman. Howerver, I
think your argument is not reasonable in this discussion. On computers
and networks, a character is assigned a code. It's self-explanatory by
computers handling JIS. On the phone, mention its JIS code, though you
may need to utter some escape sequences beforhand. :-)

Regards,

--Taro
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