Re: [Lingo] Re: [tlug] Correct particle to use

[Bart Mathias <mathias@example.com>]

Josh Glover wrote:
> On 12/06/07, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen@example.com> wrote:
> 
>> Ask their mothers.[1]
>>
>> Ask them if they can say 「bawdo君は日本語の本を読めるかい？」
> 
> 
> I think not. I think this is either a mistake or conveying some nuance
> a) for which no formal rule exists, or b) that neither my wife nor I
> have ever studied. I consider (b) somewhat unlikely, considering that
> the wife and I have something like 10 years of formal Japanese
> language instruction betwixt the two of us, and she has an advanced
> degree in Japanese linguistics.
> 
> But stranger things have happened. :)
> 
>> A look at the first page of Google results for 「を読める」 suggests
>> that being a subordinate clause may have a lot to do with it.  「◯◯
>> を読めるよう」 alone occurs 4 times in 12 instances.
> 
> 
> Now this is an interesting clue.
> 
> To resolve this issue, I imagine we will have to involve a professor
> of Japanese language somewhere; we need the why and wherefore that a
> native speaker probably cannot give us, except through examples. I do
> not mean to deprecate anyone; I know I cannot explain the formal rules
> for many things that I know instinctively as a native speaker of
> English.
> 
> Obviously, I am not arguing that "object を V-potential" exists in the
> language. Google has shown us that it does.
> 
> I am wondering if there is a prescriptive rule that explains its usage.

I used to be a professor of Japanese language, until I retired in 1999.
What that status tells me is that you really need a *Japanese* professor
of Japanese to do the question justice.

I certainly never taught anyone to say, e.g., 日本語の本を読めます, but
I don't think it's at all anymore unheard of than the three native
speakers someone in this thread queried suggested. It's probably felt to
be something on the order treating 本を読む as a compound verb and
potentializing it そのまま. "Hon'o yom..." runs trippingly off the tongue.

This is probably different from, yet similar to, the desiderative
alternation between を and が. One is taught that adjectives don't take
objects, and -tai forms are adjectives, so it might seem that it has to
be コーヒーがのみたい. But a book on 文法 for 浪人 I bought in 1956
points out that コーヒーをのみたい is acceptable, and explains it
something like my attempt with 読める above.

The scariest thing is をほしい. I got 333,000 googits for that just now,
and some of the first ten turn out to be coincidence (the noun before
the を is the object of a later verb), but the first one is quite
suggestive:

ときどき「仕事をほしい」「子どもをほしい」など「を」を聞くことがありま
す。連体修飾舌皛逅跂勉闕子どもをほしい女舌皛逅跂勉闕Δ法屬髻廚ⅳ修譴襪海箸發△ê
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