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[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]Re: [tlug] Ghosted?
- Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2025 22:49:57 +0900
- From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" <steve@example.com>
- Subject: Re: [tlug] Ghosted?
- References: <26761.58439.2209.105269@Stephens-MacBook-Air.local> <26761.53683.183872.715904@Stephens-MacBook-Air.local> <ca865335-2d38-44ad-90ed-c93d10d74923@vortorus.net> <CAAhy3dvDB=DY9UbkgrwoCT-1K-2_QKvvdH7p5SVUVSpoM=CWmA@mail.gmail.com> <26760.58139.254293.214473@Stephens-MacBook-Air.local> <PR1P264MB418168C3DB45F90DAE10E007B725A@PR1P264MB4181.FRAP264.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM> <aJHmVrT04tSqvp5e@monotonic.cynic.net> <CAMyPCTT4cR5RtMcqhdsG+p6TMW=8+h5GZ=Qnm6d-hj3NfBoHyw@mail.gmail.com>
James Tobin writes: > Based on this, No. That's just standard language about termination. Your assertion, as you said before, is based on a theory of reliance for these two: > I’m asserting that obligations such as providing feedback, > progressing candidates, (at least until you provide contractual language for them). > and honoring introductions made prior to termination This seems like it goes without saying in recruiting, and probably is specified in the contract language. > still apply. These are not casual expectations—they’re part of the > ongoing responsibilities embedded in the agreement. "Embedded" is not a concept in US law, and I doubt it is in Japanese law. Either there's supporting language, or there's a specific legal theory such as reliance. > What’s troubling is that their legal team is now attempting to > weaponize specific contract terms, "Weaponize"? I'm sorry, but you can't "weaponize" contract terms. They're there in black and white, and you engage in non-contractual activity at your own risk. That doesn't mean that a court won't decide the terms are invalid or that there's some consideration that makes what you did moot. But complaining about the rules that you agreed to is a bad look. > such as the clause stating that recruitment must be initiated by > HR. Yet historically, they’ve engaged my services—including hiring > candidates—without formal HR requests. This pattern of conduct > suggests a broader, more flexible working relationship than the > strict letter of the contract implies. Sure, and that's not a problem unless the counterparty changes their mind. But them changing their mind in this way doesn't automatically create reliance. For example, you can announce to Microsoft you're going to pirate Windows all day long for a decade, and do it, but if they come after you after 10 years, you're going to lose. Again, reliance is one of the standard theories for the validity of a public license in the absence of consideration. But the intent of such a license is clear, which is a crucial part of the reliance argument. > In 20 years, I’ve never encountered a situation like this. Congratulations on your taste in clients, then! > It feels deeply off. During a recent call, HR shouted at me and > made inappropriate references to my gender, skin color, and the > size of my company—calling it a “one-man band.” It's a shame you don't have a recording of that. (I don't know what the rules on that are in Japan, find out before you do it!) > their use in this context raises serious questions about > professionalism and bias. True. > It seems symptomatic of a wider trend: employers ghosting > recruiters, avoiding feedback, and opting to post roles on > platforms like LinkedIn to bypass external support. I don't think so. The HR person is just an asshole. Assholes have always existed, have always managed to get into managerial roles, and they always will. The trends in the industry derive from a myriad trends in technology and culture, independently of the prevalence of assholery. > This isn’t just about one contract—it’s about the erosion of > professional standards in recruitment. Don't kid yourself, this is about one contract, for you. > I believe this situation gives rise to an equitable estoppel claim. > The company’s consistent pattern of engaging my services without > formal HR requests created a reasonable expectation that such > conduct would continue. And it did continue, until formal termination of the contract, no? I don't see a (legal) problem with that, unless they're trying to avoid paying for services that otherwise would be covered by the contract. > I relied on that expectation in good faith, investing time and > resources accordingly. I don't see a legal reliance problem though. You agreed to a contract that allowed termination at any time. If you now regret your time and resources, they're going to argue that that's your bad planning, not reliance in the legal sense. I suspect a court will agree. I think you're on somewhat firmer ground with respect to the expectation of feedback, but it's still pretty shaky. They can argue it was just generosity on the part of the manager you had been working with, not an implicit obligation of the company. As for advancing the hiring process, as far as I can see that's always entirely up to the company. An individual candidate might have some sort of discrimination claim, but your claim for damages due to foregone work as the process advanced seems speculative at best. > It would be inequitable for them to now deny that conduct and > enforce restrictive terms that were never previously applied. In the common sense of inequitable, it sure is. Legally, I'm dubious. Far more important than this one case, in my opinion you need to disconnect your feelings about this one contract from the trends in the industry. It's your career, so you know a lot that I can't, and you'll have to judge for yourself, but let me say my piece. My daughter has been working in one of the well-known re-employment firms for a while, so I've taken a bit of interest in the industry. My wife is getting tired of me whispering a reply "Stalker!" to the "Recruit agent" commercials, but I'm also watching how the content of the commercials and ads on trains etc are changing, as well as the changing ranks of the top companies. Big data and A-fscking-I are driving a lot of the changes on both sides of the market as both candidate filters and application automation progress rapidly. LinkedIn, I don't know if that's such a big deal any more as it gets populated with bots and fakes, but many industries have specialist sites, and several of the professions I follow on BlueSky have active recruiting and job search networks there. I expect that HR managers in companies large enough to contract with recruiting firms are probably under a lot of uncomfortable pressure right now, because on the one side salaries for new graduates are rising, retention rates are dropping more rapidly than that, and there's rising discontent in the middle ranks (especially non-elite-course 40-50 year-olds who got screwed big time by the "lost ''/2/3/? decade(s)"). (Of course that's still no excuse for being an asshole, but firing recruiting firms is one obvious way to cut costs, hoping to recoup via modern IT tools.) You're welcome to describe your value-add or otherwise rebut. I don't intend to deny it, especially since you are evidently a boutique matchmaker (often referred to as "headhunter") rather than a mass "classify and route" hiring mill. (Maybe someday I can afford your services. :-) My point is that I don't think managers have changed in terms of professionalism, bias, or even outright assholery. Rather, I think technology and the economy have changed. Your knowledge and skills in working with candidates and managers are still valid, I'm sure -- people don't change much even after a half-century like Japan just experienced. But the conditions in the market have, and those changes have surely been accelerated with changes in IT and demographics. Push back against the changes, and you'll get bounced. Adapt and win, at least that's how I think about it. -- GNU Mailman consultant (installation, migration, customization) Sirius Open Source https://www.siriusopensource.com/ Software systems consulting in Europe, North America, and Japan
- References:
- Re: [tlug] Ghosted?
- From: Curt J. Sampson
- Re: [tlug] Ghosted?
- From: James Tobin
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