Re: [tlug] fanless pcs

[Benjamin Kowarsch <trijezdci@example.com>]

> On 3 Jul 2018, at 22:31, Curt Sampson wrote:
> 
>> Has anyone used the Taiwanese Liva Z fanless pc?
>> 
>> http://www.ecs.com.tw/ECSWebSite/Product/Product_Overview.aspx?DetailID=1729&CategoryID=-1&DetailName=Feature&MenuID=-1&LanID=0
> 
> Yes. I have two, a Celeron N3350 and a Pentium N4200. Specs and
> vendors at <https://github.com/0cjs/sedoc/blob/master/hw/sff.md>.
> 
> The 2-core Celeron N3350 (¥22k) is too sluggish to be worthwhile;
> Chrome really bogs down on it. The 4-core Pentium N4200 (¥25k if
> you're willing to wait a couple of weeks for delivery) is much better
> value and has been my main desktop system at work for a half year now
> and I'm very pleased with it.

thanks for the info, that's good to know.

> I do mainly Python development, which does from time to time involve
> large C builds (I end up building local versions of Python from source
> on a regular basis, in fact a half dozen times just today, by chance)
> but I don't do enough of it that I feel I want to upgrade to a real
> desktop CPU.

I will be building GCC and Clang from source but only occasionally. If it takes a few hours so be it. I can alway start the build before going to bed and let it run overnight. Not a big deal.

Other than that, what I compile and build isn't anywhere near as big as GCC or Clang. It takes from seconds to a few minutes.

> Chrome is not totally snappy, but is good enough, even
> though I do a lot of browsing. I honestly don't usually notice the
> difference between it and my Core i5-3450. (PassMark CPU and other
> specs at <https://github.com/0cjs/sedoc/blob/master/hw/cpu.md>.)

I usually have a bunch of tabs open with different pages of online documentation, forums, standards, github repos and wikis. This can easily reach 20 or 30 tabs.

> I have 8 GB in both systems, but I've used them with 4 GB and even
> that worked fine in my fairly lightweight fvwm desktop environment
> with minimal visual tools. Right now, with 16 tabs open in Chrome and
> a couple of dozen urxvts (many running vim) it's using 3.77 GiB of
> memory. Opening VSCode brings that up to 4.33 GiB, though.

What about vim?

> One of the really nice things about them is the on-motherboard 32 GB
> MMC solid-state drive. It's about as fast as any run-of-the-mill SSD
> and provides enough space for reasonable development in my experience,
> even with a half dozen Python interpreters, lots of virtualenvs, and a
> few full-size (Debian, Ubuntu, etc.) Docker images on it.

Did you also install the OS on that drive?

> I'm also pleased with the display support. I'm sure it wouldn't do for
> gaming, but it runs my 4K monitor off the DisplayPort interface just
> fine at 60 Hz, and at one point I did have a second 4K monitor hooked
> up to the HDMI output, though that ran at only 30 Hz.

I don't do gaming. I only want a large monitor so I can have multiple editing windows comfortably visible on the screen without having to ruin my eyes any further. Also, I find it very helpful to have documentation open and visible at the same time, ideally on a second monitor.

>> I am looking at using something like that as a development station,
>> basically running Ubuntu and various different builds of GCC and Clang,
>> plus VIM or VS Code for editing and a browser and PDF reader for reading
>> documentation on a second display. So nothing heavy.
> 
> I'd definitely put 8 GB of RAM in it. Otherwise, so long as you're not
> constantly doing massive compiles, it would probably be fine. And it's
> cheap enough that if you do get annoyed at it being too slow you can
> either fork out for a VM in AWS or GCP with some real ooomph or just
> buy another machine without feeling too bad about it.

In the worst case I could rededicate it to something else, like installing SIMH and running a VAX emulation with OpenVMS although I will probably do that on a Raspberry Pi instead. But Minix3 doesn't run on the Pi yet, so that would be a good use for such a box. At that small size, when you don't have to worry about the space it takes up, there is always something else you can do with it. In fact this is part of the attraction of these small fanless PCs.

> Summary:
> 
> If I needed another desktop machine, I'd probably buy another N4200;
> it runs one or two 4K monitors, speed is OK, and the size (hardly
> bigger than my hand) is very convenient.

sounds good to me, thanks.

> I've looked at the i5-7200U version as well, but it's considerably
> more expensive, especially if you wouldn't be buying an M.2 SSD for
> the N4200. (The i5 model doesn't have the on-board 32 GB MMC drive.)
> Once I start spending ¥50k instead of ¥25K I'd start to consider a
> significantly more powerful desktop CPU. A ¥13k Core i3-8100
> benchmarks four times as fast, so you could probably put together a
> nice Mini-ITX system for under ¥80k

Indeed, at that price tag, I would probably consider the Aleutia R50 instead.