Re: [tlug] Onto Debian via MEPIS

[Jonathan Byrne <jq@example.com>]

On Fri, Jan 02, 2004 at 05:24:03PM -0500, Charles Muller wrote:

>Alternatively, I tried to install Sarge (testing) and Sid (unstable)
>with every sort of ISO and boot option there was, but these would go
>through neither on my Clevo, or on my Dell Dimension desktop, a fairly
>standard machine. There was always device hangup or dependency issue
>somewhere.

Well, you could sell them both and get a Thinkpad, Debian installed
without issue on my 600X :-)

Seriously, though, did you know that Sarge and Sid can both be installed
via the Stable installer?  You use the advanced options and after
the basic install, you will get an opportunity to choose different
apt sources.  You point that apt sources at Testing or Unstable
and you're there.  It basically does an apt-get  dist-upgrade on the fly.

It's good news that Mepis does such a great job, but that kernel
is a two-edged sword for certain.  Do they have any other little
surprises like that?

>Going back to try again with Debian I came to realize from my
>conversations on the Debian lists, that Debian's largest present problem
>is the lack of a good installer. I agree. So does Bruce Perens, it
>seems.

It could use some help, but it's altogether not all that bad.
Getting sound to work on my desktop system was rather a PITA, although
it was pretty straightforward on my Thinkpad.  The installer works well
for people who have a pretty good grasp on what they're doing, but it
can be a barrier to people who don't.  That is, however, not an entirely
bad thing.  Have you seen some of the people who are installing Mandrake
and Lindows these days?  I mean, we're talking about the kind of people
who should maybe consider not owning a computer without proper supervision,
who are probably a poster child for every Windows virus that comes around.
Then they install Linux and carry that legacy with them.  One of them
subscribes to the Yahoo Group for Yahoo Messenger on Linux.  She alwas has
something to say, but never anything that is A) Helpful to the person who
posted the question, or B) Non-stupid.  Sadly, she's hardly unique.  But
somehow she perceives herself as a genius because she bought Mandrake
9.2 from one of the cheap CD sites and installed it, a fact that she
advertised (both Mandrake and that site) until she got a moderator 
slapdown (I'm not the mod, but I applauded the action).

So, while a slick and highly polished Debian installer might be
neat (the current one is like the old 4.x/5.x era RH installer, but that's
really not so bad), the one we have now serves as a fairly effective barrier
to entry to the sort of people I really don't want to see using Debian
anyway. Some will call me elitist, but I'm not; the sort of people I
don't want to see using Debian are the willfully ignorant; anyone who
educates him/herself or wants to be educated is welcome; the people I'm
talking about are computer-stupid by choice, and also typically want to
take from the community but contribute nothing back.  I am, to echo
Prof. Turnbull on this subject, a meritocracist.  Those who have clue or
are willing to work to get it and who know or are willing to learn the
Unix way are quite welcome; those who neither have nor want to have those
things are quite welcome to go elsewhere.  My suggestion to them is that
they buy a Mac, which will be a lot more stable than Windows, a lot more
secure than Windows, is just generally better, and will give them access 
to paid support people from whom they can demand answers and help.  A LUG
list or a Linux newsgroup is not a place where you can do that.

I look forward to a slick new installer, but if the fierce Debian reputation
doesn't keep the unwashed at bay even after the new installer, I'll 
have to retreat to Arch or Gentoo, or maybe even FreeBSD.  The BSD
installer is nice and hostile to people without clue, and I think they
like it that way :-)

Jonathan
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