Re: [tlug] disk configuration: drive mounting

[Matt Doughty <mdoughty@example.com>]

On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 12:30:17PM +0900, Jim O'Connell wrote:
> On Mon, 8 Apr 2002 10:23:42 +0900 (JST)
> Christopher SEKIYA <wileyc@example.com> wrote:
> <snip>
> > Bingo.  If you want to use Microsoft-style management tools, use Microsoft.  If you
> > want to use UNIX, use it in the proper manner.
> <snip>
> 
> What the hell is the "Proper Manner"?  If I use Webmin, I am just using a well-polished perl script to write the file.  If it was just a command line perl script, would that be less evil?  Is Perl too newbie-ish? Should I be using a shell script if I want to automate things a bit?  I know, I know, I should do everything in vi on a dumb terminal over a 1200 baud modem.  That way, Linux stays *pure*...
> 

Proper manner is acknowledging that these tools are retrofitted to the 
system, and as a result are little more than a hack.  Using hacks are fine
if you know what you are hacking around, but the problem exists in the fact
that to many people who are using these tools are those who can't be bothered
to learn how the system works.  That is opening a bag of pain however you 
look at it.  The fact is for all these configurable programs there are 
multiple versions with varying config file formats, and if you get a mismatch
between your gui config hack, and the actual version of the software you
are using then things can explode in spectacular fashion.  The fact is the
*nix way is text based config files not gui tools and as a result the proper
way is to edit those text files by hand.  If you want to use a script or
a gui to speed up the process thats fine but it isn't canonical way to do
things and if you don't know what your gui tool actually does then it becomes
a serious problem if something doesn't matchup.

Imagine a situation where you update your distro and get bind 9, but still
have a gui tool that writes bind 8 config files.  You change a setting and
suddenly your DNS is completely fubarred, and if you don't have a clue about
what the gui front end did you are SOL.
> Where the hell did all of this snobbishness come from? 

Snobbishness? This is just awareness of reality. Just because the cannonical
way requires you to have a clue, and we as a group tend to agree that this
is a good thing(tm) doesn't make us snobs.
> 
> The people who wrote Webmin (and every other tool like it, ) had at least some desire to make things a bit easier for people. Why not use their tools and give them feedback?  Why not make Linux a little bit less of a Pain In The Ass(tm)?  
Maybe because we don't consider it a pain in the ass? I find text files very
usable. I'm sorry you don't like it, but windows is still there for you.

> 
> At my office, I am easing Linux into a formerly Microsoft-only network.  One of the support people has the task of adding new users' mail accounts.  I set her up with a webmin account to do this - sure, she could just ssh in as root and type 'adduser', but guess what?  She's a lot less intimidated to go to her bookmarked web page and use Webmin's Japanese-localized interface to select the options.  Once she learned that, it was a no-brainer to get her administering our Majordomo lists.  Starting and stopping the proxy server?  A click away.  To me, this stuff is a Good Thing, because it means that I get one less phone call on a Saturday night.

Everything has its uses, but it is still heading down the PCD admin world that
plagues windows.
> 
> {As a side benefit, another coworker asked to borrow my distro cds to install it at home.  Should I have told him to download Slackware onto floppies over a slow modem like a real man?  He doesn't really know what he's doing yet, but he's interested, at least.  Maybe he'll start coming to the meetings and one day add something valuable to the community. (Or maybe he'll read threads like this one and go back to Windows in disgust.)}  

Either way I don't care.  The point still remains using gui hacks to get around
actually RTFM is a bad thing(tm).
> 
> So far, Webmin has performed beautifully.  I added the caveat to my last mail to try and avoid a bit of this vitriol.  I didn't.  So I'm just going to say it:  I use Webmin and I like it. 

Which is fine, but you _know_ what it is doing. You can fix it if it blows up.
There is a difference and the difference is crucial.

> I also use vi - I love it.  I use it to edit just about any text that I need to edit.  I also know how to add lines to /etc/fstab and have it work.  I just don't want to have to try to explain how to do it to my boss on a Sunday afternoon in my pathetic Japanese on my keitai from the changing room at an onsen in Hakone.  (This happened 3 weeks ago.)  
> 
> I thought part of the point of a LUG is to increase the number of people using Linux.  On the TLUG web page, it says "All are welcome."  Is that short for "All are welcome to get blasted for wanting this stuff to be more usable"?  

You are welcome, but don't expect us to support you looking for an easy way
out since you will inevitably be back here when it does wrong. We will express
our opinions I'm sure what you should do if you think our opinions aren't nice.
You can want whatever but the community doesn't owe them anything.  You want it
to be more usable then make it more usable.  Contribute.  I find the system
perfectly useful so why would I spend time working on that?  If you want that
then windows is there for you.

> 
> Every time someone installs Linux on their PC, are they expected to suddenly have 10 years of command-line experience, just so they can browse the web or write a letter?  Or are they somehow 'not worthy' of their operating system, because the partition they just wiped was Windows ME?  

*nix is not a free windows.  It doesn't try to be a free windows. If you aren't
willing to learn how to use the system then it isn't right for you. The 
community doesn't cater to people looking for a free windows and since all this
is more or less done for free there is no obligation to do so quit expecting it.
> 
> If that's the case, instead of offering *information* to new Linux users, why don't we start offering a lot of *misinformation* ?  Scare even more of the 'Unwashed Masses' back to their world of Windows and AOL...  That will teach `em.
> 

If learning scares them back to windows then it for the best.

> I could go on, but what's the point?

I have no idea.  You seem to think we have some obligation to coddle 
ex-windows users.  This is a fundamental difference of opinion.

--Matt

-- 
"Take away them collisions and the common channel and it's like Christianity 
 without Christ." -Jim Breen (speaking about "full-duplex" Ethernet)