tlug: Dave`s concerns/Frank`s suggestion (was: `Old Guard`)

[tjhaslam <tjhaslam@example.com>]

Dave wrote:

Dave >This is something i kind of mentioned in my other posting 
Dave > what TJH here might refer to as the real "Linux community" 

Be careful here.  The Linux community ``bit``  has been an ongoing going
debate for some time now on this list.  I do NOT limit the `real`
community, whatever `real` might mean here, presumably to programmers and
GNU-ers.  Since, of course, I am neither myself.  Nor am I a *member*  by
the standards perviously stated by Chris and by Stephen Turnbull.

Dave>TJH has valid point here that the definition of the "Linux community"
is in 
Dave> question. 

Thanks but NO thanks.  I don`t think the ``defintion is in question``.  I
think the __community itself__ is undergoing a massive change, and that
people like yourself and myself are the `vanguard`, as it were of that
change.  I discussed this on the TLUG list at hideous length earlier, and
I`m not interested in repeating myself because it`s boring to me and more
boring to everyone else.  More simply, I think that people like myself and
yourself DO have a lot to offer the Linux community, even as Chris and ST
have defined it.  BUT _not_ in the currency they have been trading back and
forth for the past several years: code/hacks.  

Despite what I think that people like myself--and presumably yourself--can
offer, the Win/Mac transients, however, do bring some very different
expectations and attitudes.  In other words, we have some adjustment to do.
 So does the `old guard.`  Expect this to be a messy and occasionally ugly
process.  All things considered, and all the things that can go wrong, I
think that TLUG is handling it rather well.

Chris`s objections, however, make perfect sense to me even if I strongly
*disagree* with him on a number of related points--points that I`ve already
beaten to death. (If you really care, search the archive).   It was Eric
Raymond who described the Open Source Community as having *a gift
economy*--I suggest you read or re-read his classic `The cathedral and the
bazaar`.   Linux has become what it is because people were willing to
share, to help each other out.  

Any surprise that some of these *members*  see people like ME--and too a
much lesser extent, perhaps even you--as showing up empty-handed, and then
whining, complaining, and demanding services.  If I`m paying people to
develop for me, I expect to call the shots.  If people are volunteering
their time, and effort, and expertise, I can NOT expect to be their BOSS
and I certainly should NOT piss all over their efforts.  __Sensitivity
works both ways here__.  

Dave> I have Linux installed on my machine, and want to use it more

Right.  Same here.

Dave>  but i am incapable of developing for it. 

Right.  For the indefinite future, same here.

Dave> It would seem that by TJH's standards, i am NOT 
Dave> a part of the "Linux community".

Wrong.  I defined _quite well_ my position on this topic in several posts
to the list.  Don`t misrepresent me.

Dave> Does that mean that I 
Dave> shouldn't be here in this list? 

Chris claims he should not be on the list.  And he`s a programmer/
developer.  I`m on the list because I want to learn more about Linux.
Chris is someone who knows a great deal about Linux--and a far more
valuable list member than I am.  If he feels that people like me are
driving him off the list, then we have problem.  Wakarimasu ka?

Dave>If so, then where would a person like me go 
Dave> when i want to learn more abuot Linux? 

I`ll assume you mean besides the TLUG list, which I do not suggest--on even
imply--you drop.  I am suggesting you do some work, some research on Linux
and even GNU, to understand better what you`re encountering in way of
expectations, attitudes, shared knowledge, et cetera.  Linux is a different
culture.  I`m suggesting not deference but simple respect.


Frank Bennett writes:

FB> Maybe it's time to start thinking about weakly subdividing 
FB> the TLUG  mailing list?

Yes.  I think so.  Possible subdivisions:  Commerical Development News;
Linux Philosophy; et cetera.  Main purpose of the list: the  tech
support/sys admin info exchange that is does so well.

Best to all,
TJH
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