Re: tlug: MSNBC: MS watching Linux

["Stephen J. Turnbull" <turnbull@example.com>]

>>>>> "jb" == Jonathan Byrne <- 3Web <jq@example.com>> writes:

    jb> On Thu, 3 Sep 1998, Howard Abbey wrote:
    >> Linux needs to do so.  So, to all you sysadmin's out there, why
    >> is a "standard" GUI so important?  To be more exact, why is one
    >> required fairly configurable window manager (Win95 taskbar,
    >> desktop & explorer) better than multiple highly configurable
    >> window managers?

    jb> Against that background, then, a standard window manager is
    jb> better because:

    jb> 1) As was hinted, compatibility can be an issue, but more
    jb> importantly . . 2) It's about supporting it and having people
    jb> find the same thing on every desktop.  Consider this example:

No, it's not.  It's about supporting it and having the _support geek_
find the same thing on every desktop.  Not the same thing.

    jb> You've been placed in charge of outfitting 2,000 PCs in
    jb> company A with Linux.  [...]  You need to consider:

    jb> *Ease of maintenance.  Not only do no two window managers look
    jb> alike or work exactly alike, no two window managers have
    jb> compatible configuration files.  Configuration files can even
    jb> be incompatible between different versions of the same wm.

That's what scripting languages like Python are for.  :-)

Many of the scripts are already written for you.

    jb> *Ease of support: If your users have a half-dozen window
    jb> managers to choose from and they go around changing them, your
    jb> help desk is going to have a lot more trouble dealing with
    jb> this, and will likely need more staff.

Easy solution:  support only one, punish people if it's not on their
box and in the restart menu.  *Restarting the window manager doesn't
affect anything else on the box in Unix.*  (Well, modules in fvwm
derivatives, which is the exception that proves the rule.)  If it
does, prohibit the WM.

Repeat after me:  the Web browser is NOT part of the OS.  The Web
server is NOT part of the OS.  The GUI is not part of the OS.  The
window manager isn't EVEN part of the GUI.  The COMMAND shell is not
part of the OS.

Now that that's straight....

    jb> *Ease of use: some people will at least sometimes be using
    jb> different computers in different parts of the company or the
    jb> building.  If the machines were running MacOS, Windows, or
    jb> OS/2, they'd all look the same everywhere you went.  No
    jb> learning curve, nothing special to do, no problem. Everything
    jb> works the same way.  On UNIX, change the window manager and
    jb> you change that.

See above.  On Unix, changing the WM can be done on the fly.  As long
as you are required to have the WM available and restartable, you can
do it.  I did it this afternoon---installed fvwm2 from an xterm, then 
killed twm and started it.

    jb> *Ease of upgrading apps. When you have to upgrade or install
    jb> desktop apps on a couple thousand machines and there are half
    jb> a dozen window managers with half a dozen config files, your
    jb> IS people have a lot more work cut out for them and the
    jb> process takes a lot longer.

That's why competent IS people install small linux partitions on the
WinXYZ boxes and do the app distribution using *nix networking.
Halves the work even if each window manager needs to be solved
separately.

<NOT-A-PLUG-BUT-AN-EXAMPLE>
But they don't.  Debian does not distribute window managers unless
they contain the necessary scripts to be integrated into Debian's
general menuing scheme.  Update one menu configuration, then propogate 
using the wm-specific script.
</I-LIED-IT-WAS-REALLY-A-PLUG-BUT-IM-STILL-A-TL-BETA-TESTER-OK-SCOTT>

    jb> The bottom line, if you'll forgive the pun: when I outfit
    jb> company A with its 2,000 Linux machines running ApplixWare or
    jb> WordPerfect for Linux, I would also outfit them with one, and
    jb> only one, window manager.  You can change your wall paper, you
    jb> can drag icons around on your desktop, you can change your
    jb> menus if you really feel like it and learn how to do it.  You
    jb> can't change your window manager.

Like hell I can't.  If there are 2000 boxes in the organization, I
don't care if it's an exceptionally large and over-technophiliac
kindergarten, some user is gonna know how to change WMs, and she'll
teach me.

    jb> One way or another, you will be assimilated ;-)

Don't bet on it.

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