GUIs: Motif or ...? (was Re: tlug: Fw: Could Linux Kill NT?)

["Stephen J. Turnbull" <turnbull@example.com>]

>>>>> "Matt" == Matt Gushee <matt@example.com> writes:

   sjt> I think you're missing Jamie Z.'s point.

    Matt> No, I don't think so. I believe his point was that Linux can
    Matt> only achieve long-term success if it has a standardized GUI,
    Matt> and that since Linux is a variant of UNIX we should build on
    Matt> the existing UNIX standard, i.e. Motif. He made a statement
    Matt> to the effect that a standard doesn't have to be great, it
    Matt> just has to be good enough.

Yup, you missed it.  :-)

The point is that Linux is the best free Unix, most of the guys
developing for proprietary Unices have Linux boxes at home ('cause
they're not rich enough to afford an SGI like Jamie), and that's a
great chance for Linux to free ride on all that experience.  Won't
happen[1] if they have to learn GTK to do it.

At least two of the core XEmacs developers are present or former Sun
employees.  Several others bust their asses to make sure that Motif
continues to be supported.  These guys are among the more important in 
terms of keeping UI issues on the front burner.  Coincidence?  I don't 
think so.

The people building GTK and GNOME and stuff like that are smart and
dedicated.  But the core implementation stuff is too much work to
leave them free time to write Style Guides, I should think.  Motif has 
one already, a big win, even if you don't necessarily like it much.

    Matt> I'm no marketing genius, but I would guess the next crucial
    Matt> market for Linux will be people who use computers
    Matt> professionally but are not computer professionals per se
    Matt> ... small business owners who need reliable databases, web
    Matt> designers who want to try out the GIMP ... etc. These
    Matt> people, I imagine, are now using Windows (well, the
    Matt> designers may be using Macs, but let's keep it simple),
    Matt> thinking they'd like something better, looking at
    Matt> alternatives. Sun? SGI? HP workstation? With what money?

Exactly the reason why they want a well-implemented Lesstif, I should
say.  Looks like what the rich biches they meet at Tailhook
conventions use.

    Matt> Can Motif *on Linux*, within realistic time and budget
    Matt> constraints, be improved enough to win over whoever it is
    Matt> that we need to win over? If so, then JWZ is right. But a
    Matt> number of developers seem to think that it's just too damn
    Matt> hard to code for Motif, too hard to work around the bugs;
    Matt> whether or not they know what they're talking about, I can't
    Matt> say. Steve? Anybody?

I can't say about a good implementation of Motif.  AFAICT, most of the
bitching about Motif comes from the fact that it's no easier to do
simple operations non-compliantly in Motif, than it is to do them
compliantly in Motif.  People are saying, "I said, `F**k the style
guide!'  It's just too BOGUS that it doesn't get easier when you don't
worry about style!!  So!  Motif stinks!"

To the extent that that's true, making it easier for developers like
the one quoted above[2] is going to cost us the unified GUI that will
make Linux palatable to people like Blaine Stone's boos [nice typo, I
think I'll leave it].

Working around Lesstif bugs and unimplemented features has been a
monster in the past, but it is getting much better.

    Matt> Just for the record, Windows is not my standard for judging
    Matt> GUIs -- OS/2 is. Fantastic interface, just not enough native
    Matt> apps or support.

Um, er, ah ... hate to say it, but PM is Motif Style Guide
conformant....[3]  Can't speak to the issue for Warp, though.

Footnotes: 
[1]  Ie, very expensive in terms of learning curve.

[2]  This is a work of fiction, any resemblance to persons alive, dead
or decomposing is purely accidental.

[3]  Again, according to an undocumented comment in O'Reilly's _Motif
Programmer's Guide_ (vol. 6A of the X Window System Guides series).

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