Re: tlug: Re: Japanese input

[Karl-Max Wagner <karlmax@example.com>]

> * Kanji are beautiful. Dammit, they're beautiful, and I though I
> suppose that's not considered to be worth much these days ... well,
> there's no sense in arguing this point, I guess. But my values say we
> weren't put here on earth just to be efficient and maximize "value"
> (in the utilitarian or capitalistic sense) ... though perhaps we were
> put here to experience the inevitable tension between beauty and
> efficiency.
Well, true.....just doesn't buy you anything. Capitalism
rules....
> * Kanji are extremely efficient carriers of meaning. A glyph is not
> just a glyph, saying what it says ... it's also a microcosm of
> meanings, overt and covert, carrying echoes of Toyotomi Hideyoshi and
> Lao Tzu. The density and richness of meaning in one Chinese character
> is far beyond anything an alphabetic language is capable of. That's
Hmmm.....ever read Tolkien....?
> how Chinese-character poetry can be so concise, yet so powerful
> ... for those who appreciate such things. That's why Chinese books are 
> thinner than their English counterparts -- saving trees, guys --
> though Japanese books are weighed down by kana.
Are they ? I have quite a few Japanese computer books here,
among others the PC Programmer's Sourcebook. It's as thick as
the US version.....
> 
> * Kanji were adopted in Japan, not only because Chinese was
> fashionable, but because they were an effective means of communication 
Sorry if I contradict you. They were adopted because in Japan
this was the only writing system known. If Europe would have
been closer by, they now would use an alphabetic system.
> among East Asian nations. Even if their speech was mutually
> incomprehensible, educated men throughout the region could communicate 
> through writing. They still can, to an extent. Give a Japanese person
> a copy of Renmin Ribao, or a Chinese a copy of Asahi Shimbun, and
> chances are they can at least get a general idea what it's about. On a
Yes. I use that, too. Well, I also can read most european
languages that way. No problem. No Kanji required. 
> personal note, when I met my wife four years ago, there were a lot
> things we just couldn't communicate about by speaking. Where would we
> be without kanji, I wonder?
Fortunately the genetic code is univeral. Mother Nature is a lot
better in standardization than we are.
> * Arguably, the Japanese phonetic repertoire is too narrow to
> represent adequately using only kana. Eliminating kanji would make it
> that much harder to distinguish similar-sounding words.
It works nevertheless. The French eradicated the Kanji in
Vietnam and replaced that by the alphabet with lots of accents.
Works. The Vietnamese keep on using it.
> * Kanji are great for second language learners ... IMHO. No, let me
> rephrase that: kanji are great for *third* language learners ... when
> your second and third languages are Chinese and Japanese, as mine
> are. Since I've never tried learning Japanese without knowing kanji,
> I'll never know how much difference it made -- but I can say for sure
> it was a big one.
Japanese was my third language. i learned it using the alphabet
( using Linguaphone ). Then I self studied Kanji. So far so
good. Then I installed JDOS on a computer. I got it working
without too many problems. Then a friend of mine and me tried to
print from this using a dot matrix printer. Hairy stuff. I
started studying how the innards of the Kanji stuff worked and
found out that DOS with Kanji is about three times as complex
than without. Then I became pensive....
> If anything should be eliminated it's kana -- especially
> katakana. That would have the beneficial side-effect of improving
> Japanese students' English pronunciation -- since for the first time,
> schoolchildren would have to deal with the actual sounds of English
> words :-)
Brutally speaking, the best would be to do what the French did
in Vietnam or what the Turks did by themselves or what the
Slovenes did some time ago: throw out their proprietary writing
system and switch to the alphabet. Due to the multilingual
setting in Europe, the alphabet is relatively good at
representing different languages. Just here I see serious
trouble - the typical "Not Invented Here" syndrom in its
cultural guise.
> Bottom line: kanji are a useful, beautiful, valuable means of
> communication. The fact that they don't get along too well with
They are. However, their drawbacks are considerable, too. 
> computers is just too bad.
Not only that. Guess why the West got topsides on the rest of
the world ? The answer is Gutenbergs printing system. It
drastically improved the possibilities of spreading knowledge
all over Europe. Problem: with the technology available by then,
this only worked with the alphabet ( or similar stuff ). End
result: Europe soon outpaceed all the other guys scientifically
and technologically and colonized the whole world. Remember: it
was this kind of superiority that allowed Commodore Perry to
force Japan open at gun's point - he simply had the guns....
So, the Kanji may be useful and whatever, but alphabetically
written stuff can be mass produced with simple technology making
them superior from a practical point of view.

20 years ago computers coudn't handle Kanji - they simply lacked
the memory - in the West people typed their letters with
typewriters and computers and in Japan they were dreaming of a
time when this would be possible.....

Considering all this makes me even more pensive....

> Whew. Had no idea I would get so worked up about this. I feel better
> now -- hope you do, too ;-)

I somehow understand you. I have more than just a soft spot for
Japanese classic culture - including Kanji. However, the world
is not just there for my or anybody else's romantic feelings,
what it normally boils down to is to decide whether a particular
tool - and a writing system is just a tool for communications -
is still up to the task or not. If you find something better, it
is time to discard the good. Even if it hurts. But such is life.

                                  Karl-Max Wagner
                                  karlmax@example.com
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