Re: [tlug] ACID Tests (was Re: Browser share in Japan?)

[Raymond Wan <rwan.kyoto@example.com>]

On 30/05/11 18:33, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> It does mean it's flawed, in fact.  See the more detailed commentary
> at http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roc/archives/2010/06/not_implementin.html.
> (Maybe -- it's a hard slog, as much of the interesting material is in
> the comments, but the people commenting mostly need to be whacked with
> a cluebat for posting trash.)
>
> In summary, it's flawed because it tests superficial aspects of a
> feature, while nobody has an implementation that goes beyond
> skin-deep.  Allowing that is bad.  A conformance test should at least
> spot-check the hard parts.
>
> I agree with your implied position, though; this is hardly a fatal
> flaw in the ACID test, you just have to be very careful when comparing
> 97% to 100%.


Yes, this is sort of what I mean.

I think there are sometimes tests where 100% is difficult to 
achieve or losing a few percent doesn't necessarily mean 
we're failures.  Driver's road tests, for example.  :-)

I'm sure we can imagine there being worse situations.  Like 
not having a test at all.  Of course I don't work on 
Firefox, but I would guess that even for such a "flawed" 
test, it was perhaps helpful to developers in getting them 
to the 97% in the first place.

It was probably useful a while ago for comparing between two 
browsers that were at 60% and 80%, perhaps.


>   >  It's like those questions on the JLPT or Kanji kentei where
>   >  only a small percentage of native Japanese speakers could get.
>
> No, it's not.  The reason is that a statement of conformance to a
> standard is supposed to mean "you can use these features to get those
> effects", and Font is a *required* part of the SVG standard.  You can
> debate whether that was a good idea or not, but that's the standard as
> written.  IOW, this is like the difference between 97% and 100% on
> kyouiku kanji.  If you miss anything there, you end up looking like
> ex-Prime Minister Aso, mispronouncing "mizou" (and creating a fad
> among elementary school students, my daughter's friends frequently use
> the word!)
...
> Well ... yes and no.  One suspects that in fact there was feedback
> from Webkit and Opera developers, just enough to ensure they get 100%. :-)
>
> However, conformance tests should test what's in the standard, not
> what developers think should be in the standard.  They had their
> chance; it's not like Mozilla is unrepresented at the standards
> conferences.  (Admittedly the paying members have more votes, so bad
> standards can be and frequently are rammed down the throats of the
> poor users.  Viz, Open Office XML or whatever the standard based on MS
> Office docx and xlsx is called.)
>
> In fact, I'm sympathetic[1] with both sides on the issue of whether
> SVG Fonts should be a required part of the SVG standard.  I suspect
> that SVG Fonts is indeed a bad standard (consider the facts that "*no
> browser* supports SVG 1.1 "full" Fonts, and none of them are working
> on such support", and IE 9 explicitly disclaims support just like
> Mozilla does, quoted from the page linked above).  OTOH, even simple
> support has some interesting uses, such as allowing the unique shapes
> used in corporate logos to be defined and then included in the
> document as text.  Another is the ability to introspect all locally
> defined parts of an SVG document with only an SVG editor.  (Both use
> cases mentioned in comments, again available at the linked page.)


Thank you for the explanation; I see what you mean.

As I understand it, SVG is often associated with web 
browsers but they can also be used for other purposes.  So 
it also wouldn't make sense for the SVG working group to 
define a standard with only the web in mind.

If it is important for the web, then someone will implement 
it in a browser and that might encourage others to consider 
doing it.

IMH (and somewhat uninformed) opinion :-), it sounds like 
there is too much attention on that last 3% of the ACID 3 
test.  In many countries, 97% in school is still an A+ -- a 
mark that I would have loved to get...  :-D

Ray